tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post1396212610721335788..comments2023-12-25T23:28:04.785+08:00Comments on Dodgy Coder: StackOverflow's Programming Language BiasDodgy_Coderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-17117480689093244842011-11-16T15:07:48.752+08:002011-11-16T15:07:48.752+08:00@climboid, yeah, JavaScript has also become known ...@climboid, yeah, JavaScript has also become known as "the duct tape of the internet" (or was that perl?). Most if not all web application development includes some bits written in it. That and the fact that the people using it are often not experts in JavaScript.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-6978506420220393232011-11-14T22:49:05.143+08:002011-11-14T22:49:05.143+08:00Javascript is the most used language in the planet...Javascript is the most used language in the planet, obviously more people are going to have questions about it and some parts of it sometimes don't make much sense unless some one explains them to you.climboidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09070250817119741482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-10537801749062033382011-11-08T16:04:45.079+08:002011-11-08T16:04:45.079+08:00@Qwertie, the language from TIOBE was just matched...@Qwertie, the language from TIOBE was just matched with the nearest tag on StackOverflow. I only used one tag per language, and didn't want to get into the complexity of (C# + .NET - VB.NET), etc.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-80347487342699697012011-11-08T15:00:45.881+08:002011-11-08T15:00:45.881+08:00+1 @Alex +1 @Schwern+1 @Alex +1 @SchwernAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-33560252719748831072011-11-08T14:31:58.369+08:002011-11-08T14:31:58.369+08:00I'm surprised that a lot of people say JavaScr...I'm surprised that a lot of people say JavaScript isn't hard ... that may be so for just the core language by itself, but I've found that when you try and do anything significant with it involving the web/DOM/browser-compatibility or other libraries such as jQuery you can quickly run into problems.<br /><br />The other thing to consider is that the majority of questions on SO tagged with JavaScript would probably be relating to an associated library or browser issue, so that may have inflated the total number of JS questions asked.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-47677626761871262762011-11-08T09:41:59.751+08:002011-11-08T09:41:59.751+08:00A multi-billion company doesn't have to use th...A multi-billion company doesn't have to use the best tools to make a lot of dough.<br /><br />Just ask anyone on Wall Street or currently unemployed person.<br /><br />Sure Facebook uses PHP, but is facebook rock solid, stable enough to run a power plant? Yeah, I thought so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-12992399785048692772011-11-08T09:02:58.510+08:002011-11-08T09:02:58.510+08:00So what if they ask more questions ? Does that mak...So what if they ask more questions ? Does that make them any less programmers ? I bet you never posted a single question about your language. <br /><br />Isn't what the web is for ? Making information more accessible , you tend to forget that sometimes even a great developer often need others opinions or advice .<br /><br />And to correct you , .Net or more specifically c# is one of the best generak purpose languqge and if you can use msdn efficiently you'll find your name less online. <br /><br />I believe that regardless of anything. A great developer will write a good program using any language. Perhaps if you spent more time developing software than trying to engage in language politics you'd be great too.shaunyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12708036112741393736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-56899540378910082082011-11-08T08:02:48.735+08:002011-11-08T08:02:48.735+08:00The measure of "over-representation" is ...The measure of "over-representation" is certainly a combination of many things but I suspect the two primary things it is measuring are language growth of fresh developers (rather than growth of usage of the language which TIOBE measures) and also the lack of other sources of really good online documentation.<br /><br />For example:<br /><br />Javascript is not any harder than many of the other languages on the list, but for Javascript, StackOverflow is one of the best sources of documentation online. There is currently a flood of new developers joining the Javascript community.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-65298033427152432212011-11-08T04:43:46.202+08:002011-11-08T04:43:46.202+08:00Did you consider posts tagged with .NET (but not a...Did you consider posts tagged with .NET (but not a language tag)?<br /><br />Of course, the majority of questions on SO are about libraries (often 3rd-party libraries) and tools, regardless of language tags. A lot of questions tagged C# should really be tagged .NET since they are questions about libraries or tools that any .NET language can use.Qwertiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04595705428290721343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-62186110512108703012011-11-08T02:51:56.237+08:002011-11-08T02:51:56.237+08:00I have about a dozen Java technology related forum...I have about a dozen Java technology related forums in my bookmark list, ranging from JavaRanch to the JBoss and Spring sites. The fact that SO is lacking in Java is no shock. Java had a number of solid forums before SO.<br /><br />And I wouldn't be surprised if there were many C programmers on usenet or on mailing lists. When I was writing C about 15 years ago, Usenet and email lists were the best ways to get help. I wonder if that is the same now.salhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17845938848671168079noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-24738502027655933842011-11-08T01:45:48.928+08:002011-11-08T01:45:48.928+08:00PHP was several flaws, but, was there, where other...PHP was several flaws, but, was there, where other languages weren't. And I wish there where other languages, because there are so many websites done in PHP, that are very difficult to maintain, today (even if got paid) !!!<br /><br />There is also the point of how is a programming language used, web programming, desktop proramming, cross-platform, cross-os or single platform or single o.s. ...startdev.mramirezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06123595039179266120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-28416638782752429882011-11-07T18:49:50.469+08:002011-11-07T18:49:50.469+08:00@Lars, hehe - unfortunately you could say the same...@Lars, hehe - unfortunately you could say the same about things like COBOL and VB - they're not pretty, but they get the job done and they have carved out a niche for themselves in certain classes of applications.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-58654683150133028582011-11-07T18:17:42.235+08:002011-11-07T18:17:42.235+08:00PHP, as a language, is crap even though large comp...PHP, as a language, is crap even though large companies are using it. People working with PHP in large companies agree on this too.lnostdalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02815573744512388906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-51205704753272958032011-11-07T14:21:38.075+08:002011-11-07T14:21:38.075+08:00JavaScript is probably over-represented because a ...JavaScript is probably over-represented because a lot of Web Designers try to use it without the most basic programming experience or training.Corneilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02929392099486168526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-18969124426965885022011-11-07T12:44:50.582+08:002011-11-07T12:44:50.582+08:00@willr, interesting theory ... goes some way to ex...@willr, interesting theory ... goes some way to explain why well established languages like RPG, COBOL, FORTRAN, C, etc. don't feature much on StackOverflow, given the significant number of developers using them. Could also be that these devs tend to be older and maybe just don't head straight online for a solution to their problem as many younger devs do?Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-34712714474009185892011-11-07T11:10:15.745+08:002011-11-07T11:10:15.745+08:00Nice.
My punt at explaining your findings: I woul...Nice.<br /><br />My punt at explaining your findings: I would hazard a guess that SO over representation is inversely correlated with quantity and quality of (official) documentation.<br /><br />I'd also be a little wary that you don't do anything with framework tags. There are many frameworks which imply a language, and SO only allows five.willrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16680121153623516973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-52714930387804354352011-11-07T09:20:36.273+08:002011-11-07T09:20:36.273+08:00I agree with Alex. The TIOBE index's methodol...I agree with Alex. The TIOBE index's methodology is garbage. There's no evidence it has any relationship to the real world number of programmers.<br /><br />What your numbers show is not SO's programming bias, but simply that SO's ratios are different from TIOBE's. There's no anchor to the real world here. One cannot say who is over nor under representing.<br /><br />It's still interesting data, but there's nothing to support the conclusion. Throw in some more cross-language sites like Github and the scattering of language use would be interesting to look at, but without an anchor to reality there's no way to judge who is biased.<br /><br />NOTE: Github's language detection algorithms are not always correct, and sometimes things get a bit overrepresented... https://github.com/gitpanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-42253549461888936292011-11-07T09:17:05.849+08:002011-11-07T09:17:05.849+08:00@Ariel F - yes, but this current data was only loo...@Ariel F - yes, but this current data was only looking at the top 20 TIOBE index languages, and on TIOBE, R didn't feature in its top 20.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-10411309711904587392011-11-07T08:55:04.180+08:002011-11-07T08:55:04.180+08:00Looks like you missed R. With over 7600 tagged qu...Looks like you missed R. With over 7600 tagged questions on stackoveflow.com, it should be ahead of Lua and after C.Ariel F.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01227097166518066902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-265714684601909942011-11-07T05:00:25.169+08:002011-11-07T05:00:25.169+08:00Given that the TIOBE index is garbage, I think jud...Given that the TIOBE index is garbage, I think judging the ratio of real projects on a public open source repo by it is completely backwards. You might better ask the question: based on the GitHub distribution, where is the TIOBE index totally out of whack? <br /><br />Or you could concede that they are likely both not representative of anything general and thus comparing them tells you nothing.Alex Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00363057501166590139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-38501594101051922142011-11-07T04:44:09.953+08:002011-11-07T04:44:09.953+08:00Javascript is probably overrepresented as there...Javascript is probably overrepresented as there's likely a lot of questions like "this js works in Firefox but not IE 6" and the N different implementations (across versions) of javascript.<br /><br />There should be some way of collapsing those types of questions to reduce the total number of questions.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11719320811694093499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-5398652384526062792011-11-07T03:40:18.911+08:002011-11-07T03:40:18.911+08:00The amount of questions correlates with the lack o...The amount of questions correlates with the lack of contemporary and sufficient documentation. C for example is more than established and well-known. Hence many jobs, but fewer open questions.<br /><br />There is some question bias, because some languages are more popular and precious to spare time developers, like anything not Java.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-42693054011414216732011-11-07T01:51:35.560+08:002011-11-07T01:51:35.560+08:00Leave it up to the .net evangelists to turn a perf...Leave it up to the .net evangelists to turn a perfectly good blog post into "here's some vague reason php sucks." You know, of the list, people are having more trouble with C# than any other language other than Javascript (which we expect). Maybe if you idiots spent more time writing code, and less time complaining about languages you don't even understand the basic concepts in, the numbers would look a little different.The Foolishhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03241551976779889671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-78757010468254445822011-11-07T01:38:18.056+08:002011-11-07T01:38:18.056+08:00The reason FORTRAN is not included is that Real Pr...The reason FORTRAN is not included is that Real Programmers don't ask questions on SO, they consult the JCL manual.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00857738010468552628noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-8921229026410461532011-11-07T00:38:04.436+08:002011-11-07T00:38:04.436+08:00Actually, I propose that the issue isn't langu...Actually, I propose that the issue isn't languages at all, it's libraries. Javascript and C# have the largest and most complex libraries that ordinary programmers encounter in a given day (namely, the DOM and .NET). These have accreted without competition from day one, and in the case of Javascript, have multiple independenly derived implementations, so they tend to be difficult.<br /><br />Calling Javascript "a crap language" doesn't help. It's a fairly ordinary implementation of Scheme-with-labels, and its core is easily grasped by any programmer within a day. It's the lack of tooling and the complexity of the environment that makes it challenging. <br /><br />Javascript and C# also have the headache that they're User Interface languages. People who program in them are programming for other people, not for operating systems and servers. People are more complicated and challenging than computers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com