tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post6427188096839815380..comments2023-12-25T23:28:04.785+08:00Comments on Dodgy Coder: Why do Programmers get paid less than PMs and BAsDodgy_Coderhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-39136317963044571312016-03-06T11:18:10.117+08:002016-03-06T11:18:10.117+08:00Thanks Mark, nice comment - yes I think its recogn...Thanks Mark, nice comment - yes I think its recognised that many developers have an introverted personality. In the groups of developers I've worked with I've found a pretty wide range of people - just as in any other group, some overconfident, some reserved, some are great in dealing with people. I personally got a lot of benefit working in a retail job while studying - it helps to hone your customer skills and seeing things from a different point of view. In retail there's the saying that the customer is always right, whereas in programming you could probably say the user/client is always right. Even if they're misinformed technically. ;-)Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-11014392692223320012016-03-04T22:41:09.062+08:002016-03-04T22:41:09.062+08:00I did IT at University... in the labs I could neve...I did IT at University... in the labs I could never get the level of concentration required to code well. I was always saying Hi to people that passed me, chewing the fat, gossip etc etc. My skillset became building bridges with other technology streams and making something from nothing. i know it's a sweeping statement but really good coders tend to have a tunnel vision, a lazer focus on the details and structures, something in general that does not make them people persons. I used to have a guy who was top of his field in software design and coding but the thing was you could never put him in front of a client. Different stroke different folks As I said huge generalisation but that's my tenpenneth worth. Mark Fletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325800221449188695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-58184380473747743792016-03-04T22:40:19.559+08:002016-03-04T22:40:19.559+08:00I did IT at University... in the labs I could neve...I did IT at University... in the labs I could never get the level of concentration required to code well. I was always saying Hi to people that passed me, chewing the fat, gossip etc etc. My skillset became building bridges with other technology streams and making something from nothing. i know it's a sweeping statement but really good coders tend to have a tunnel vision, a lazer focus on the details and structures, something in general that does not make them people persons. I used to have a guy who was top of his field in software design and coding but the thing was you could never put him in front of a client. Different stroke different folks As I said huge generalisation but that's my tenpenneth worth. Mark Fletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13325800221449188695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-61357808823384214632016-02-28T10:48:37.144+08:002016-02-28T10:48:37.144+08:00'programming is more difficult than managing&#...'programming is more difficult than managing', ouch! As a manager, I definitely disagree on that statement. I created a blog post on why I prefer managing vs coding here: http://softwaremanagementblog.net/2016/02/24/top-5-reasons-to-choose-managing-over-coding/<br />Dave+Michelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508124303788327893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-46801131727491775312016-01-13T06:06:18.345+08:002016-01-13T06:06:18.345+08:00Because unless you're working for ex-engineers...Because unless you're working for ex-engineers in an engineering company, most non-programmers (if they were honest) haven't got a clue what programmers actually do, or aren't really that bothered, and see programmers as a means to an end. <br /><br />And it's also because as an industry, we don't have a trade union to argue on people's behalf for equal pay.<br /><br />Either grin and bear it; or become useful, helpful and indispensable; or work your way up the ladder into management; or move on somewhere else. Or learn a valuable skill and go contracting.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00343092024312819790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-21182940964776837092013-10-21T18:37:59.026+08:002013-10-21T18:37:59.026+08:00The answer seems to be quite simple! This world is...The answer seems to be quite simple! This world is full of mobile app developers. In almost every nook and corner you will find developers ready to help you out with your problems. Now when it is the time where people rely completely on smartphones and tablets. It has become now a necessity for every entrepreneur to reach large target audience through a medium they prefer the most. Great article though!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-82290671675918308362013-05-29T19:45:16.332+08:002013-05-29T19:45:16.332+08:00"the closer you are to the money, the more yo..."the closer you are to the money, the more you make. "<br /><br />This is totally true. You take ur part before the others guys that are less closer ...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14208473995905981028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-61288122897888356182013-05-29T19:33:49.532+08:002013-05-29T19:33:49.532+08:00Kudos ! SarahC Kudos ! SarahC Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14208473995905981028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-27341545794928772022012-08-11T12:44:11.509+08:002012-08-11T12:44:11.509+08:00That is total BS. People skills.
What a fucking c...That is total BS. People skills.<br /><br />What a fucking crock. In big corporations management is basically "do what I tell you, since I have a higher title, and make more money than you"<br /><br />People skills success.fequalmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00563238866171290724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-46227702194760705572012-08-11T12:41:25.763+08:002012-08-11T12:41:25.763+08:00what people skills? somebody define people skills....what people skills? somebody define people skills.<br /><br />Most PMs are dbags. Is shitting on everybody, and making unrealistic demands "people skills" ?<br /><br />If I got paid 105,000 as a PM, i would shit on everybody to, and say I had people skills.fequalmahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00563238866171290724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-31431966087249178862012-06-28T04:39:23.353+08:002012-06-28T04:39:23.353+08:00I've been a COBOL programmer since 1984, 29 ye...I've been a COBOL programmer since 1984, 29 years! I've always been paid morwe than I deserve at times, but never appreciated. <br /><br />Despite having the best of skills, work ethic, experience, style, and speed, the guy doing all the talking is going to get the lion's share of the money. <br /><br />Although money talks and bullshit walks, it doesn't work that way in the business world where we all get our money from the corporate payroll, bull shitter get paid more.<br /><br />PM's are nice people, when was the last time you implement something that went according to plan.elliothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12001793036141921986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-56241065286224645542011-11-28T22:08:25.720+08:002011-11-28T22:08:25.720+08:00"Given that programming is generally more dif..."Given that programming is generally more difficult"<br /><br />This is not a given at all. Programming is more difficult in the cerebral dimension, but management is more difficult along the people skills dimension among other things. Most programmers wouldn't make good managers. You might say most managers aren't good managers either, but then again most programmers aren't good programmers either.<br /><br />Sometimes I wonder why so many of them get paid at all...Martijn Meijeringhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12081666469671666008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-27142512728872844952011-11-16T14:06:32.058+08:002011-11-16T14:06:32.058+08:00@Christophe de Dinechin, whatever dim view develop...@Christophe de Dinechin, whatever dim view developers might have about sales and marketing (which you've got good reason to have) noone can escape the fact that the most well crafted piece of software is worthless without someone selling it to the world. That said, in a lot of cases with a decent website and some google keywords you are probably half way to replacing the entire marketing team...Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-36255101198596587632011-11-16T13:59:48.347+08:002011-11-16T13:59:48.347+08:00@Developer_GR, yeah pedigree is something that luc...@Developer_GR, yeah pedigree is something that luckily, not too many companies I've encountered place much value on; one exception I can remember was a new PM who came with good refs, and seemed to talk the talk when he turned up. Fast forward 3 months and after creating havoc for both the developers and the salespeople he got shoved out the door with a swift kick up the arse.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-80346335027405239312011-11-15T23:22:10.085+08:002011-11-15T23:22:10.085+08:00It's a false dichotomy, because you're ass...It's a false dichotomy, because you're assuming employers have reliable information about the economic values you discuss. There is a third choice: PM's and BA's are better at projecting (rightly or wrongly) value signals.Chase Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18367661066053842171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-75626183882206461382011-11-15T18:55:09.757+08:002011-11-15T18:55:09.757+08:00@Christophe de Dinechin: The fact that you left is...@Christophe de Dinechin: The fact that you left is an indication to your character and your skill, good for you mateDeveloper_GRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17696784918005053237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-25446541418502878422011-11-15T15:35:16.383+08:002011-11-15T15:35:16.383+08:00Another thing worth considering is that to many de...Another thing worth considering is that to many developers, their value to the company is largely unknown and speculative (meaning: easy to dispute for their manager). By contrast, managers, salesmen, marketing, etc all spend time on budget analysis, investments, revenues, pricing, etc. So they are constantly reminded of the value of what they do.<br /><br />What made me aware of that was a discussion with an salesperson at my previous employer. He told me he had added X millions to the bottom line, and had gotten a significant bonus as a result. He saw the sales as his personal contribution, his personal value-add. Never mind that I had designed the product and led its development for years (and never received even a quarter of that guy's bonus). At the time I designed it, its value was negative (investment). At the time the salesman was pushing it to customers, it was a money printing machine.Christophe de Dinechinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14371046467509971885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-67183457677558049302011-11-15T13:45:36.161+08:002011-11-15T13:45:36.161+08:00I have worked for a company that actually had as a...I have worked for a company that actually had as a prerequisite that all managers should actually be able to code their way out of a binary tree and let me tell you I am still regretting the fact that I left for greener pastures:(<br /><br />Concerning pedigree, I can testify that while business does place an insane value at it, it is also a sign that its not really a business you wanna be working at, since in programming the old adage hold truer more than anywhere: "Money talks and bull*** walks.". <br /><br />You cannot sweet talk your way out of an infinite loop in production code no matter how good you are. And if you consider yourself half a decent programmer then you don't have to. PM/BA are paid to do...Developer_GRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17696784918005053237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-16090562191801454892011-11-15T13:32:46.420+08:002011-11-15T13:32:46.420+08:00Outstanding comment on cost centers vs profit cent...Outstanding comment on cost centers vs profit centers by <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/maj2s/why_do_programmers_get_paid_less_than_project/c2zf1nt" rel="nofollow">ef4</a> from reddit:<br /><br />In a software company where software is a profit center, developers are paid well and generally respected.<br /><br />In any other company where software is a cost center, developers are low on the totem pole.<br /><br />If I had to give only one piece of advice to newly minted software engineers, it's this: you'll be much happier if you actually work for a software company.<br /><br />One exception to this is the games industry. The game industry has another factor. There is a never-ending supply of young and impressionable developers who think "I love playing games, so therefore I would love writing games." This large supply keeps wages low.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-63902521610886015182011-11-15T13:22:27.805+08:002011-11-15T13:22:27.805+08:00Excellent comment on negotiating your salary by ca...Excellent comment on negotiating your salary by <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3231695" rel="nofollow">calibraxis</a> on Hacker News:<br /><br />Yeah, being willing to walk away for a better offer is the most encouraging thing to have in your pocket. That's worth working to get.<br /><br />Another tip I heard, and tried out, is to start with a price higher than the highest you think they're willing to part with. Even if you cringe to say it. On the logic that the price can easily come down, but it's far harder for you to push it back up. (If they accept your first offer, the reasoning goes, you didn't go nearly high enough. Remember, that first price can affect you for years.) It worked for me, though of course YMMV.<br /><br />(For those who cringe in salary negotiations, Graeber's "Debt: The First 500 Years" may give you some perspective on why it makes you feel bad.)<br /><br />Definitely helps to get in a position where you interview people. (Not to mention salary negotiations.) Then it'll be clear what employers want, and what other developers do. Based on that, you can present what they truly desire.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-21621353645722986502011-11-15T13:15:55.353+08:002011-11-15T13:15:55.353+08:00Great comment by Rayiner from over at Hacker News:...Great comment by <a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3231392" rel="nofollow">Rayiner</a> from over at Hacker News:<br /><br />Salaries are a strange combination of supply and demand and superstition and belief. First, fundamentally, it is difficult to evaluate the contribution of either a manager or a programmer. So people fall back to the notion that, well there are fewer of the former and they're higher on the org chart so they should get paid more.<br /><br />Second, programming skills are seen as a commodity, while business analysis skills are seen as a rarity. This is mostly self-reinforcing perception. At the hiring stage, because people see programming as a commodity they're willing to recruit widely, while because they see business analysis as a rarity they place disproportionate emphasis on pedigree (hiring ex consultants at McKinsey, etc) which limits supply. Given the Bell Labs study, pedigree is probably vastly overrated, but business types place insane value on it. I'm in the legal field and see big firms perfectly happy to hire someone from the middle of the class at a top 10 school over someone in the top decile of a top 50 school. The difference in standardized entrance exam scores between the two is often quite small, and law firm work takes more work ethic than it does brilliance, but firms hire the folks with the pedigree because it's easier to sell that to a business type.<br /><br />Third, without using too broad of a brush, I think business analysis, etc, on average, attracts a more aggressive crowd. Programmers tend to be more mellow in my experience, and that affects people's perception of whether you've got "killer instinct" and whatnot. My law school's parent university has a business school, and frankly those folks are a little strange. They Facebook-friend people indiscriminately, always seem like they're trying to sell you something, and are really dedicated to physical fitness and grooming. Given that a large component of compensation is perception, it's easy to see why these folks would have a leg up.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-85051822614633119412011-11-15T08:07:13.610+08:002011-11-15T08:07:13.610+08:00@Developer_GR yeah I've worked with some PMs w...@Developer_GR yeah I've worked with some PMs who actually have worked as developers in their past, but once they've started in their new role, basically refuse to get into any "lower level" understanding or discussion regarding code issues. I can sort of see their point in some ways, but you're right, a good PM will be able to relate well to the development team and understand coding issues.Dodgy_Coderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14418022725678218844noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-48312845275863296632011-11-15T04:13:57.614+08:002011-11-15T04:13:57.614+08:00@Dodgy_Coder: The thing about the shitstrom and um...@Dodgy_Coder: The thing about the shitstrom and umbrellas is really spot on BUT my experience says that before you become anywhere at all decent as a PM you have to know what it's like to code. <br /><br />You don't have to be an ubber guru with mad skillz BUT You HAVE to be able to recognize code quality and appreciate the fact that developers do what you cannot. The age old excuse: "But I am a PM, I don't need/am not paid to understand coding" is the first sign of an incompetent wanna-be in my book.Developer_GRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17696784918005053237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-82641531480816951822011-11-15T03:59:08.644+08:002011-11-15T03:59:08.644+08:00seriously if you think that developers cant do the...seriously if you think that developers cant do the work of a PM/BA I propose you ponder the following thought exercise: take a company, any company and inverse the roles for a month. <br /><br />Let developers try to manage and then let PM/BA try to code. Measure the outcome (with the metric of your choice: monetary value, features completed or any other for that matter) and let's discuss the conclusions you arrive at....Developer_GRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17696784918005053237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5060551251465839575.post-8221865829289828332011-11-15T01:35:29.665+08:002011-11-15T01:35:29.665+08:00i just want to point out the flaw is evident in th...i just want to point out the flaw is evident in the question: if you are going home late, you are not managing your time well, and that is why you need to split your income with someone else to manage it for you.<br /><br />a lot of engineer types are depressed workaholics and may have been for so long they think nothing of it, but get the book "Chained to the Desk"; it changed my life by revealing how i was attracting other workaholic bosses who were exploiting me. once i learned to manage my own time, and fire the bad bosses, my income went up by several orders of magnitude.Zhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16579662211941294617noreply@blogger.com